Here's one from Shawn from Boise, ID:
"I'm wondering what kind of weapons would be best to have 'ready to go' during a riot that's not expected. I don't have a concealed carry permit but I'd want to be armed as much as possible for any unexpected violence.
What suggestions do you have that are legal but effective?"
That's a great question and I know that everyone has their own preference, so let's see how creative we can get with some "improvised weapons" or some small enough ones that could be helpful during a riot.
Please share your suggestions below in the comments section...
What I took from the discussion is to blend in with the crowd and not make yourself noticeable. If you use a weapon, I gather, all attention is going to be focused your way. No matter how much ammo you have, is it possible to stand up to 1000's of folk, and they are all after you. That is a question to the group.
ReplyDeleteSo, is it possible the best solution is to have no weapon?
Your best weapon would likely be an obvious suicide device.
ReplyDeleteI doubt anyone would attack you if you were strapped and surrounded with TNT (or what appeared to be TNT) and a dead-man-switch detonator held high above your head.
12 guage tactical shot gun with 3" mag 00 buck shot...15 shot in each round...a whole magazine worth of 9mm at one time...
ReplyDeleteIt would be best to disappear and exit asap!
ReplyDeleteA car with plenty of Gas and get out of town.
ReplyDeleteNothing beats NOT being in a riot for safety.
First of all Knowledge is the best defense, and I highly recomend Tim Larkin's TJT courses and especially his book on survival, your first 5 seconds. Outside of that having a firearm is also an esential tool. Choices are many, but a good tactical 12 gauge shotgun or .45 glock will meet the job. Again, knowing how to shoot is only a start. I have fallen into a family of top notch training for all these needs, besides Tim Larkin I suggest a course through FrontSight. Owning a gun or any weapon is only the first step, knowing how to use it effectivly and safely is more important than the choice of the tool.
ReplyDeleteFirearms are out unless you have a standing army because one person is simply no match for a mob. Perhaps pepper spray could be used against one to a few people to allow enough time to escape from them but spray drifts with the wind. Perhaps the gel would be best.
ReplyDeleteConsider the great possibilities that others in the crowd will have guns, knifes, etc. The idea is the blend in and move out as quickly as possible.
Smoke bombs might be interesting...
I am assuming that you are stuck by accident and were taken by surprise (with no "hard" weapons available)?! Then your best weapons are your brain and your elbows (maybe keys in your pocket too!). Use your alert-calm-brain to figure out the easiest quickest way out of there and your elbows to help persuade people to not crush you as you are leaving.
ReplyDeleteThe best weapon is whatever you have been trained with and are the most comfortable and proficient. I would prefer to have a tank and aerial support, but I know that I will always have my .45 if I am in a State that honors my CCW permit.
ReplyDeleteI have a tazer flashlight. Someone gets to close or to feisty, a quick zap and walk away. In the noise of a riot no one would probably hear it and you might even gain allies by asking for help for the poor person who just "passed out".
ReplyDeleteFirst weapon is avoidance. If that cannot be done easily, and the crowd is hostile to you, then to to a Pepper fogger and a Comtech Stinger in clear plastic to prevent easy notice of a weapon. Deny the crowd a pathway to you, and escape.
ReplyDeleteNobody wants to be the first to step into a 12 gauge sawed off.
ReplyDeleteI would probably carried a concealed 9mm or 45 cal with as many clips as I could manage but they would be concealed in my jacket. Also, I like knives because they are silent and easy to conceal. If you want a visual deterrent, a machete would be good. Can't think of a person alive that wants to get any where near that thing. Gangs love to terrorize with machetes because they are so cheap and devastating. I think people would rather be shot than have a hand or arm lopped off with machete.
ReplyDeleteKNOWLEDGE!!!!!
ReplyDeleteWhen I arrive in a new country rather than take a taxi from the Airport I take a limo or remise so that there is a record of how I left the airport and with whom I left (quick note on blackberry to home and office before getting in the limo). I then spend the transit time to the hotel asking about public demonstrations, possible sites of civil unrest and protest parade routes. The driver is usually more than willing to identify the general locations of same relative to the hotel I will stay at or the offices I will visit and the travel routes in between. Now you know the places to avoid if possible.
In places like Argentina and other countries under economic or political stress one is much more likely to get caught up in protests focused on a single bureaucracy or other radical focused cause (such as taking over city parks for indigenous peoples housing) rather than a full blown riot. However because there are so many of these the aggregate danger from these events is much danger than from full blow riots which are rare. One never knows what will trigger a flare up at one of these events and you being different may serve as a trigger. By the way people were getting shot at the parks demonstrations.
Seriously people? Weapons in a riot will get you killed unless you're backed by the military. The secret is to blend in, maybe shout a couple protests yourself and get the hell out as soon as you can. Start pumping rounds and the masses will go berserk....
ReplyDeleteWhomever is filtering your comments is retarded.
ReplyDeleteA lot of places you're not going to be able to carry a firearm. Awareness and knowledge will come first. Also consider a couple of stainless water bottles with some paracord on the loop on the cap. Make sure one stays full. Wouldn't want to get hit with that. Make sure you've got a good first aid kit on your person, too.
ReplyDeleteDon't attack a crowd! Even an AK would run out of ammo before 200 people charged you
ReplyDeleteBefore my dad passed away, he gave me a stun gun with a real kick. Fits perfectly in my purse. He always told me to never provoke a fight, but if I had to... finish it. I am a female and he taught me just where to place my knee and to poke and scratch at eyes if I had to. On the chance that the knee, poking and scratching just got me into trouble, I would resort to the stun gun and try to avoid eye contact while removing myself from the situation.
ReplyDeleteYour best weapon is your brain - if you have lived long enough to be part of this discussion you have a wealth of past experiences to fall back on and apply to the current situation
ReplyDeleteThe best weapon is the ability to run, which you use to run away from the riot. That may sound funny, but I'm dead serious-jogging daily is your best weapon. Running even 1 mile at any speed let alone quickly is difficult or impossible for anyone who doesn't jog daily. By running away you will avoid:
ReplyDelete-being crushed in a stampede by others
-arrested and hog tied for hours like past protesters in dc
-shot by the police or a thug militia
If the riot is around a location which you absolutely must defend at all costs, than the best weapon is the fugas mortar, of the same type used by US forces during the Korean war. Runners up are 105 mm with grapeshot,claymores and flamethrowers. Good luck avoiding an airstrike by the government destroying your entire block if you do any of those, ala wacko or the phily m.o.v.e. attack. If the attacking mob is less than 100 people and you have say at least 10 defenders, than the Saiga 12 gauge is a good bet, but than you will end up with various diseases from all the bodies you will have to dispose of. I would stick with either running or moving to a different country before the collapse.
If allowed ccw, a pistol with high capacity mag plus spare. Disengage from any group and leave the scene as quickly as possible. Only engage individuals who are trying to stop you from leaving.
ReplyDeleteIf you aren't allowed weapons, a "Millwall Brick" will work, i.e. a tightly rolled up newspaper or magazine will give you a basic weapon to deal with individuals. Scissors or a metal pen will work as a improvised stabbing device.
Best weapon is your feet. Exit the scene immediately. Escape and evade.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, don't make decisions that put you in that predicament. But, if you are in that predicament, the mentality of the crowd will determine your actions. If they are out for blood, then there is nothing better than at least a handgun. It doesn't have to be concealed carry, in fact, I am all for open carry, which is legal in most situations. If people see that you have the means to protect yourself, you will deter most. Those that are determined, you will need the sidearm. Other than that, a couple of defense blades as well as an ASP. A couple of cans of OC wouldn't hurt either. The point is to have many options in your toolbelt. If the whole group is after you, no, the best solution is not to "not have a weapon". Look at the Reginald Denny case. And he only had a handful of guys assaulting him. MOST people don't want to die. If you are picking off the ones that are trying to hurt you, the others will see that, that in and of itself should deter 95% of the crowd. The other thing I would concentrate on is people can't capture what they can't see. So, OC is a good alternative for a large crowd. (If you have the right type of dispersal and you are careful not to get it in your own eyes). Hell a couple of Stinger Grenades couldn't hurt either. (I am not sure those are available to non law enforcement). Maybe some of those July 4th smoke grenades, firecrackers, etc.. Whatever can be utilized for distraction and to create distance. Some off the wall suggestions; fire extinguisher, if you are a strong swimmer: jumping into a large body of water, lake, pond, etc., off of a bridge, (not too high) helps create distance. If you are a strong runner, RUN. A lot of defending yourself depends on your own strenghts, so find out what they are, and use them to your advantage. Martial arts stuff ain't gonna work, it's futile, so don't use it. Basically though to go back to the main question about what is best, my thoughts are just to use the typical law enforecement type stuff like I listed above.
ReplyDeleteok, RTFQ. What do you carry (without a CHL) so you are prepared if you are suddenly in the middle of a riot.
ReplyDeleteHaving been in just such an instance, the best "weapon" is the presence of mind to stay hidden as just another leaf on the tree plus the knowledge you gained previously on where to extract yourself to. Standing out in the riot is to get mobbed, and staying is asking to be a target of the reprisals.
Be invisible.
ReplyDeleteSilence and distance are your best weapons.
ReplyDeleteSome of the comments sound like young cowboys/toughs looking for a fight. In a riot they will surely get a good one. I agree with, "get out of there." How do you get "caught" in a riot? If i saw a rowdy group gathering, I would leave, pronto.
ReplyDeleteThese broadcasts seem to be geared toward gathering info from the callers, not in relating anything new. I was expecting new, tested or alternative strategies from the sponsors. Instead I got to listen to age old theories from the callers. It is only worthwhile to listen in if one has nothing better to do.
ReplyDeleteMy Best defense comes in 3 steps,
ReplyDelete1.avoid, conceal and bypass...avoid the noise, conceal yourself and try to bypass the area.
2. Strategize, survey, speed. Assess the crowd as quick as you can, look for the slow movers, the quick movers (look for fidgets) and for heaven’s sake, a way out that is the fastest with least contact.
3. Escape, elude, exist! Get out of there, don’t look like a good thing to follow "Look, she knows where to go, let's follow her!" aint what I wanna hear. get out nice n quiet and chances are, you'll live to see tomorrow.
I keep a couple of folding knives on me at all times, hubby's a knife maker so I get them custom. and I got a GHB. (get home bag)I got a big fixed blade for the front, one on the side, and a arm in the front pocket with plenty of mags. now it's not my intention to use if I don’t have to, I wanna look not as a victim, or a leader but I don’t want anyone seeing me at all. If the SHTF, lips sticks's coming off, hairs going under my hat, dirt’s going on my face. I got my boots on, my "bug out clothes" some mre's and water packs and I am taking the low road, I am going around and under. my road home will be full of twists n winds but I am staying away from the unpredictable crowds. I wanna look like I got nothing to offer and nothing to lose. but if needed, I got enough to silently slit a few throats that may call out my existence.. sorry, I love my fellow man, but the saying is "Peace Toward GOOD WILLED MEN" not "Good will towards men".
I am a woman and that already makes me a target and a liability. I work out and strong as an ox and small. (female rudy reyes) that helps.. best thing is, make yourself your own best weapon..
Many have suggested handguns, such as .45's, but no one suggested the most formidable weapon one can have which is the Taurus Public Defender. One shot, one disable, and enough rounds to open a path to escape. This assumes that all brain power and avoidance have still got one locked in a crowd from which one wishes to escape.
ReplyDeleteWith all that has been said. Blending in being the best. For defense without the usual carry a tubular scarf then load it with coins or what ever you can find that is heavy. You use it as a bludgeon or wrap it around a foot to trip, a neck to strangle. Your belt can be used like wise. A sock in the worst case. I always carry a walking stick that looks plain but effective use it to thrust to the eyes, throat, groin other soft targets. You have to practice to be good at this. Use both hands work on a thrust just like you use to stroke a pool cue stick. .
ReplyDeleteThe most excellent idea is to stay away from possible riots and get out and away from those suddenly formed. Mother taught me as a young girl to stay away from big crowds, either politcially or religiously oriented. I am still safe at 80, am legally armed and take recautions. Awareness of one's environmnet is utmost. If you see a crowd, go the opposite direction. I avoided lots of confrontations with militants at college during the Veitnamese uprisings in the US.I remember ducking through or skirting around buildings and running across lawns posted "stay off the grass" save mother earth" etc. Good luck everyone. Look for good in mankind, but be aware!!Be prepared, mentally, physicallty, spritually and with personal safety alwasy first and foremost. Anonaymous
ReplyDeleteI have a carry permit and I carry everywhere I go. But in this situation the best defense is to blend in and exit the area ASAP. Displaying a firearm in this situation would more than likely entice someone to attack and either take the weapon or kill you. So keep a low profile and become as invisible as possible while scanning the area for a good point of retreat.
ReplyDeleteIn the 70's I ended up in a race riot. Walked around the corner, lost in my own world, looked up to realize I was in the middle of a few hundred yelling people - the only white face within a hundred yards. Luckily, I had the presence of mind (accidental, I assure you) to just keep walking and made no eye contact. I knew where to go to get safe, and I just purposely made my way there. A few people made half-hearted swings or kicks, a couple pushed in my way. I made no response, just kept making my way. If I'd stopped to dig out whatever weapon I might have in a deep pocket or in a bag, I'd have been caught and hurt. Unless you have the very bad misfortune to actually run into the leaders, individuals have no desire to mess with you, an obviously innocent bystander.
ReplyDeleteStun guns are worthless, tasers and pepper spray only work sometimes and not on crowds. Get away as fast and unobtrusively as possible. If you must fight be absolutely brutal and keep moving.
ReplyDelete@jim - If your gun gets taken from you it should be empty and covered with someone else's blood. Never pull your weapon unless you fully intend to use it.
I find these comments unenlightened. The first thing one must settle in one's mind is: Is it better to live in kindness - Or kill in anger? How we die is not as important as how we live. Remember, nothing is forever! Not, so-called life and not, so-called death...
ReplyDeleteGET YOUR HAM RADIO LICENSE! 25 VERY SIMPLE multiple choice questions. Understand that What-Where you're running to may be worse than what you're running escaping from!!! HAM (Amateur) Radio is the only way to know what's happening around you!
ReplyDeleteThe radios are smaller than cell phones, cost next to nothing, can be used w/ blue tooth or ear wig so NO ONE ever sees or knows you're listening - communicating.
Many radios come w/ built in GPS or can be connected to a small hand held GPS tucked next to the small radio in a boot / ankle holster / on your belt / or in an elastic band hidden under your shirt with your credentials-wallet,back up weapons,money,etc..
This gives anyone you wish who has a computer to know your exact GPS location (direction of travel, speed you're traveling, heading - bearing, altitude, etc..
HAM RADIO HAS NEVER FAILED, are user programmable to ANY frequency in any country on the planet (federal/state or local) Police/Fire/EMS/Search & Rescue/Military and though you should ALWAYS KNOW BEFORE YOU GO you can scan if you don't know all the frequencies being used around you.
You have global communications and can also monitor everything going on around you. WITH A SYSTEM THAT NEVER FAILS AND CANNOT BE SHUT DOWN as cell phones,etc. "WILL BE"!
You have local repeaters worldwide; satellites, the internationl space station and shuttles all have ham repeaters allowing you to stay in contact with family and friends to help guide you OR YOUR FAMILY to safety AND AWAY FROM THE DANGER ZONES.
Hams have internet links and telephone patches on nearly all repeaters no matter where you are on the planet. AND, you can monitor EVERYTHING that's going on in your area and where you're intending to Escape to or seek refuge.
The worst thing in life is to be in a bad situation and not be able to know what's going on around you, where to go or as importantly where not to go and have uninterruptable communication co-ordination w/ family or get help including Military Rescue to you anywhere on the planet.
Not being able to communicate w/ love ones to keep them out of danger zones WILL eat you alive in bad situations. But you've gotta BE PREPARED IN ADVANCE. A very little study and 25 ? gets you and your family licensed.
Even in countries where you don't speak or understand the language you can - should familarize yourself w/ road-street routes around you.
You can tell by the intensity of the voices and pick up street-road locations by listening in to KEEP YOURSELF OUT OF THE DANGER ZONES. AND GET YOURSELF GPS precise HELP WHEN-WHERE you need it!
Secondly, ALWAYS carry numerous weapons (throw aways) concealed in multiple places in your vehicle. Give them (Police or thugs) something to find so they'll hopefully quit looking.
But, always leave yourself something they are'nt likely to find in EVERY vehicle you may find yourself in.
Anna very well put that is what needs to be done.Make yourself dissapear and look like nothing to fear or nothing to take and leave the aera.Using a gun in a riot will get you killed.One know where you are going and check the news to see if a riot is possible,like after a big game,big polical meeting that has had problems before.Plan Plan Plan best offense.Have a defence like ANNA stated.BUT PLANNING always.
ReplyDeleteYou all have some good ideas. But there is no way anyone can come up with ONE effective weapon for all situations that may come up...except for ONE WE ALL HAVE HANDY!! OUR BRAIN!!! That is the very most important. It is always handy, and can see and respond instantly to the situation at hand!...Train your Brain.
ReplyDeleteAlways carry a magazine or two if they are thin, and several rubber bands. Tightly roll them from the spine and put on five or six rubber bands evenly spaced to keep them tight. For best effect stab the end into soft targets. like solar plexus, groin, eye, throat, under the chin, armpit, spine at the base of the head. If you are in a crowd carry it beside your arm with two inches sticking past your hand where it is ready to strike but hard to see. Easy to carry when traveling, even on a plane.
ReplyDeleteUse the most powerful weapon in the world. Your brain. Blend in, go with the flow, gradually working your way to the edge of the crowd. Avoid areas where this stuff is going down If you hear a commotion in the distance, resist the urge to go "check it out". Avoidance, avoidance, avoidance.
ReplyDeleteScream out and point: "There goes one of them now!" "Thats the guy there!" Stop him! I saw him do it! Fire! All good. Then, scream, I hear the cops coming, Run!
ReplyDeleteoven cleaner, wasp spray, and wrist rocket sling shot are motivational. People will use them.
No permit required.
People likely will not use knives, but throwing knives are best.
Sellier and Bellot (sp) 12G 00 Buck, with 13 pellets if it comes to my neighborhood. With correct placement, one shot can take down two and you can carry lots of shells in a cartride belt or bandoleer. If I come to it....leave!
ReplyDeleteSome good suggestions above and like a previous commenter said, "Young toughs and rowdy's looking for a fight" that really had poor suggestions that could end up getting you and others hurt or killed.
ReplyDeleteAnna's comments were right on and well thought out and requires me to ask the following question; "Do you have a sister or friend out there just like you out there that is available"?
my pick for a weapon during a riot would be my mossberg 500 12 gauge and my springfiled 45 i kepp no 4 buck shot in the mossburg and 230 gr winchester ranger t hollow points in my 45 both ar definitely a man stopper my wife uses an mp9mm with 124 gr rangert +p hollow points should any of these fail my backup is an m&p 15 ar with 55gr lake city full metal jacket boattail ammo.
ReplyDeleteA thick newspaper can be layered under a tucked in shirt to form a rudimentary armor against edged weapons. A piece of one inch wooden dowel just long enough to protrude from each side of a fist makes a good striking weapon. The advantage of each is that they are not obvious weaponry.
ReplyDeleteAlways use your brain. Situation awareness, know what is going on around you at all times. Use any type of weapon as a last resort. Avoid troubled areas. Know where you are, always think of escape routes, use your brain.
ReplyDeleteThe best weapon in any situation that everyone has,{yet few use}is their brain-stay away from protests,public gatherings,etc. especialy if the topic is pollitical,religious,or race related, as it's almost certain that there will be some type of violence, and small can become uncontrolable in mere seconds. Learn to use anything and everything that you can to protect you and family present-especially your own body;TFT is PERFECT for life saving situations, and can be used by anyone to stop anyone in their tracks. The objective is to get away from everyone-period; fight only when crucial to life and limb, as a petty pissing contest will drasticly slow your travel progress at best, and result in injury or death at worst. If your race or apperance could be a target for others hostility, be aware of what is being yelled/chanted by other protesters, that way if your recieving scrutiny from the crowd, you could "join in" with the mob by doing some of their yelling-this type of acting can help one blend in as your making your way out, drawing no attention from other pissed off and emotional rioters. If we are talking about a violent riot that is several blocks or miles, the chance of violent conflict with other participants {or idiots in the area just looking for an excuse}is high-know,accept,and ready yourself to engage hostils that are a direct threat-quietly is better, as to not alert their pals, so any weapon that is quiet, simple, and effective will work; guns should always be a last resort, as they instantly do what you dont want want-placing you in the spotlight, which means others wanting your gun, and wanting the threat{now recognized as you}dead. If you have no other choice, shoot sparingly with deadly percision, and keep moving at all costs; if gunning your way through is your only good option for survival, have a reliable and quick weapon that can take high abuse, be accurate, reload quickly with ease, and in a caliber that is more then likely to kill or severly hinder the target; this means NO 9mm{unless it's all you have availible}- the round is useless for stopping or knock down, and head shots are difficult and near impossible in a high stress environment with moving targets,{including YOU if your smart}and there is still the need to move fast and invisible as humanely possible, so multiple shots to stop the threat is defeating the whole idea to begin with; .45acp, .357 magnum, and my favorite, 10mm will all STOP anyone-the Glock 20 chambered in 10mm, is a superb choice;reliable,accurate,high round capacity,lightweight,and simple to use, while being very proficiant at dealing out full power 10mm rounds. Take the travel route that is the most difficult for you-if it's hard for you, it's hard for THEM, and most people{especially a mob}will most always take the easy route; even if it's taking you away from your destination, it's probobly also taking you further from the riot and its participants. A great thing to regularily carry is a good quality tactical flashlight that puts out 70 or more lummes;not only will the light blind and dissorient anybody for quite a few seconds, the lights are usualy made of high-impact alluminum or synthetic materials that gives you an excellent impact weapon in emergencies, and are lightweight, small, and not percieved as a threat by the vast majority of people. An ASP batton is an excellent choice for carring a compact,reliable,and deadly tool that can be easily concealed and opperate silently if used-stay away from pepper sprays, stun guns, and tasers, as most will just anger or draw attention to yourself, or severly slow you down-making you a sitting duck. The whole purpose is getting away from the scene uninjured and alive-
ReplyDeleteWhen confronted near a vehicle - breaking off the "car antena" . If extended it is good to use like a swinging stick / whip-like motion.
ReplyDeleteAlso - if it is "compacted" or pushed in...the end is jagged and can be used as a puncture weapon for stabbing (for self defense of course)
Mike - CombativeFightingArts.com
The best weapon of all is escape and evasion. You should stay in peak physical condition right off the bat, in case you have to run for your life. If you can run faster and farther than everyone else, you have a leg up to start with. It is always paramount importance to stay healthy and uninjured, so you are better able to take care of yourself and your family. In case I am caught unawares, I always carry a tactical baton in the sleeve built into my pants. It can be deployed in a few seconds, needs no batteries, needs no ammunition, and can break bones and heads in a matter of seconds when there are two or more persons after you. You can't depend on cars. You may not be able to get gas. The roads may all be blocked. Your car may get damaged. I would not recommend knives or sharp objects unless you have no other option. You HAVE to be trained to properly and effectively use knives, or they will just be taken away from you and used against you. The best option of all is staying out of sight and out of mind. If people do not know where you are, you will be all the harder to attack. Stay off the roads, stay out of public. Stay HIDDEN if at al possible. For home defense against intrusion, shotguns are always best, as you can hardly miss with double aught buckshot. A dog or two to slow intruders down always helps maintain control of your property.
ReplyDeleteFrom 90daysurvival.com A 12 guage pump, Colt 45 and skunk scent in a super soaker
ReplyDeleteClearly from the above comments the best defence is to make sure that you don't live in a country that is full of armed lunatics. The USA comes quickly to mind.
ReplyDeleteWith a crowd of possibly thousands, you would need a massive amount of ammo and a minigun (GE M134 electric gatling gun) or a vehicle mounted, belt fed, full auto, machine gun, either an M60(.308), Stoner 63A (Bren Gun config w/150 rd drums or rare 250 rd drums if available?), M249 SAW or Browning M2HB, in .50 cal to drop enough attackers fast in order to make the others realize that further attacks would be straight suicide and to cause panic, in their ranks, away from your position! Legal? Probably not, but effective! Barring that, keeping a level head and not panicking, then avoidance if possible, if this became impossible, would opt for a heavy duty short sword/machete either slung over back or in scabbard on side or front draw. several concealed knives, plus a good sized fixed blade or good quality Bowie knife, a hi-cap dependable sidearm in 9mm or higher caliber with several high cap mags. Then I would also carry either an AK-47 clone pistol w/ several banana clips in 7.62 x 39mm caliber or a compact AR-10 in the pistol config with a drum mag in .308. These would not be unduly heavy and are compact enough to carry and if you start unloading with these rifle caliber 'pistols' it will do enough damage to attackers thus enabling you to escape and evade. The short sword/machete are a good backup which does not run out of ammo and causes devastating injuries which would probably cause potential attackers to hesitate rather than lose fingers/limbs or worse, heads?
ReplyDeleteYour mindset (brain) is your BEST defense against harm in a chaotic situation. You should always be aware of your surroundings (Color Code of Conduct/Awareness) If you were aware chances are you were already leaving the area before things got out of control. Intelligent Americans are armed with whatever is allowed at any given point in their travels. Having a conceal permit allows any legal weapon to be concealed on your person or in your belongings. GET ONE, GET TRAINED, KNOW THE LEGAL IMPLECATIONS of protecting yourself and your family. Be prepared always and like I stated first your brain and cool calm rational attitude will save you and yours.
ReplyDeleteAvoidance is the best primary defense, if that is not possible then, escape and evade if possible, any weapons carried should be geared towards this purpose. Whatever you carry should be effective enough to allow you to gain time to escape the scene. I seen several posts about the all powerful shotgun and some saying you can't miss with buckshot? I hate to say it, but you CAN miss with buckshot and much easier than you think! That's why practice with your chosen weaponry is paramount, cause you must be proficient enough to be able to use them in an actual self defense situation. If your not in decent physical shape, get into decent physical shape because you will need to be in the best shape possible if you are ever having to deal with a situation like this and have to escape and evade? I would also buy one of the excellent books on the subject, The Truth About Self Protection and In The Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection by Massad Ayoob. These books address a number of important factors you will need to consider should you find yourself in a self defense situation, like the mental fog adrenaline can bring on when the fight or flight impulse kicks in? The role fear plays in a life or death situation as well as other pieces of useful information concerning personal protection.
ReplyDeleteWooden weapons such as staffs and sticks. Their versatlity is unmatchable.
ReplyDeleteI bet if you found yourself in the middle of a riot or an aggressive mob situation and wanted to repel potential attackers, one could 'shite' themselves or vomit all over their person and nobody will want to come within ten feet of you? This could allow you the necessary time to dee dee out of the area? Just a thought............
ReplyDeleteThat other 'Anonymous' wrote:
ReplyDelete"...the best defence is...don't live in a country...of armed lunatics. The USA comes...to mind."
This Anonymous writes:
And to the USA, I would China and Israel and Chad and Zimbabwe, and just about anyplace bureaucrats are interested in keeping their dear perks and benefits!
Wear what everyone else is wearing. If the crowd is going one way (assuming it is not away from a threat) hold something to your head, or arm, and move slowly towards the safest edge. Look hurt if you think it will help. Maybe ketchup for special effect. Play for sympathy. Don't become a symbol though ("Look; they are hurt! The -fill in the blank- have hurt them!") Get out slowly, get away from the general flow; find a cafe or hotel and see if you can get out the back way. Do not carry a weapon, do not use a weapon, do not be a threat. The idea is to live, not to fight.
ReplyDeleteBottom Line: The weapon you have with you when you need it.
ReplyDeleteIf at home, one rifle, one shotgun and one pistol as a minimum - each must be reliable, accessible and wiht an ample ammo supply. On the road - you have what you brought to the fight.
A lot of you didn't really answer the question, he has no CCW, or lives some where other than USA or Israel etc where CCW is common. I am from Australia and live in China right now so no CCW possible. Also, knives illegal in these places!
ReplyDelete1. Use that Head of yours!
2. Be aware!
3. If you get stuck in this situation move with the crowd but slower than them as you work your way back and to the side.
4. sound and look like the others!
5. Walking stick is good, I am "old and harmless..." also can be used to poke from further away so they believe it is someone else. distract them from you...
6. Telescoping baton as alternative, use for longer reach distraction.(may not be legal)
7. Sharpie pens, mini-maglights or other similar hand striking tools are easy and legal to carry.
8. Use small un-noticeable moves where possible, when using a tool.
9. If you're coming out of a building etc, dont!
10. Slumping down in a doorway if on your own may work also.
As someone else said, unless you're in an APC with a chain-gun or flame thrower, offensive weapons are not going to cut the mustard.
PART 1
ReplyDelete-> be fit and dress cleverly
-> hard objects that can be easily hidden (spring loaded batons are awesome)
-> rolled up newspaper with elastic bands
-> car antennae
-> a rock or half-brick (careful not to kill someone)
-> one person commented -> strong flash-light to blind people (and hit them) -> brilliant.
-> these weapons are easy to use and can quickly disable an attacker. They are easily concealed; the element of surprise will give you the advantage.
-> sprays are not a great idea, you might hurt yourself, also, you should have practised a lot. Sprays are easy to knock out of your hand.
-> a knife -> if it's small, easy to hide and easy to access. A knife should be a surprise. Flashing it for everyone to see is just stupid (sorry to the guy who loves machetes).
You should be well trained, as well. Well trained is not playing with a knife all day long.
-> NOT a gun, unless you are really capable of handling one (if you are, you won't pull it out during a riot). Realise that it is an absolute last resort and will probably get you killed.
Oh, and if you are firing a gun, well done genius, you've just escalated the situation/riot and all eyes are on you. Also the immediate crowd around you are probably going to stampede and turn into a mob.
PS Shooting a moving target is ridiculously difficult, especially if you are moving.
-> tazers can be useful, but you really need to surprise the attacker and the loud sound could attract unnecessary attention.
-> I think it would be easier than normal to have a weapon taken from you in a chaotic situation. Which means you just armed a rioter. When someone sees something like a rolled-up newspaper, they probably just see something they don't like to read, not a weapon. Weapons that are easily concealed are the way to go.
-> Also, using some weapons carry serious legal consequences, as well as moral consequences (what if you shoot a kid by accident?).
-> If you carry a dangerous weapon, some people might see you as a direct threat and try to take you out. Armed forces that respond will definitely mark you as a target.
-> Bottom-line, if you whip out a machete or a gun, you're an a-hole who's probably going to kill innocent people and make everything worse.
Marius
PART 2
ReplyDeleteWHAT DO YOU DO? Use your common sense, like this ->
1 - Unexpected and riot should not go together. Pay attention and realise the potential for a riot in a given situation. Watch the news, read the newspaper.
2 - If you MUST gather with a massive crowd, stay on the edges, with a clear escape route. If you see someone smash in a car's window, you should have left ten minutes ago.
3 - If you walk into one by accident, get out. Double back if you can. Take a more elaborate way home. If you really MUST go through, stay on the edges and try to look inconspicuous, do not engage anyone: physically, verbally, eye-contact, nothing. Try to pass through "casually" and slowly.
4 - Do not stand out. Guns or machetes will MAKE you STAND out.
5 - Use your strength -> for instance -> athletecism. I know that I can outrun just about anyone on the street, so if I can see a clear route out, I would start walking it. If it comes down to it, I would sprint, praying that no crazy track athletes saw me ;D.
-> Another comment above was about taking a challenging route. This is a good idea if you can manage it. Someone would have to be real bloodthirsty to pursue you over walls, cars, etc. Throw things over: lean out and throw a chair into the path behind you, open a door, throw over a bin. Most people when they are running fast would probably fall on their asses. It will slow them down. The second or third pursuer might not know about the chair. Then again, you might also fall over if you try things like that.
6 - Find a good hiding place, depending on how violent the riot is.
7 - Pretend that you are part of the riot -> that does not mean throwing a TV on a car. But depending on the situation, it might be a good idea. Work your way out.
8 - Don't be a hero, you're not.
Marius
Your weapon is between your ears -- your mind. A conventional weapon will attraction to you. A victim of your weapon lying on the ground will attraction to you. The strategy is PLAN A: Be invisible, escape and evade. PLAN B: If someone spots you and singles you out, turn them into a blood mess. Smash their nose, rip off their ear, expose their scalp, tear their cheeks, etc. While the crowd's attention is on the bloody man stumbling through the crowd, you return to PLAN A: be invisible. Escape and evade.
ReplyDeleteSomething that you could walk around openly with is a 20 oz soda/water bottle. One that is 2/3 full and used upside someone's head or in the nose is quite effective as a "surprise" weapon. It won't fight off a crowd but it may give you enough advantage to get away. My job requires steel toed shoes so I wear those quite often, the protect yours toes and add an edge should you have to use your feet defensively. Since they also come in a tennis shoe type version you can wear them without them sticking out. A simple Bic lighter curled into your fist will help firm up a punch. Not ideal weapons but anything is better then nothing.
ReplyDeleteIt is easy to see,...from the comments, who has been in such a scenario before... Rick Three Bears gives wise counsel...It is best to disappear into the crowd and appear to be one with them than to allow your mouth to make you the target of their wrath... their numbers are greater and nothing less than a Samurai Sword could keep them from laying their hands on your body...and if that happens,...they would tear you apart like a pack of wolves... I do not normally run from a fight...if the odds are even....but it is an exercise in futility to attempt to stop an angry grizzly bear by oneself... I have been a Hero to myself more than once...I have saved a person's life...my own...by running away....to fight another day... Respectfully, Joe LittleBear..
ReplyDeleteWasp and hornet spray - direct stream up to 25' away.
ReplyDeleteno weapon. don't riot. enough people will be doing that anyway. if you are caught in a crowd that begins to riot.. i suggest that you have looked for your way out on your way in :)
ReplyDeleteFirst: Best Weapon is your BRAIN...Second: If you must use a Weapon,use what ever you are proficient with ( a .22LR round will drop a Deer sized animal). If at all possible try to avoid any kind of threat
ReplyDeleteSince your brain is your primary weapon, use It. Keep a low profile and blend in. Work your way to the edge of the crowd, then get the hell out of there.
ReplyDeleteA few cans of "Wasp and Hornet" spray will keep the attackers at bay for a while. They have a 20 to 30 ft range and will make thier life a living hell for 30 minutes or so if sprayed in the face. This should be backed up by your 12 guage and 1911 45.Of course this will only buy you time to GET THE HELL OUT A DODGE. Evasion is best policy.The cause needs no dead heros!!!
ReplyDeleteeasy to conceal and effective not lethal unless needed to be:
ReplyDeletecollapsible baton, lead filed slapjack or blackjack, classic brass knuckles, a walking cane with a big grip or knocker, OC spray, JPX or kimber pepper blaster, stun gun, Kubotans
easy to conceal and lethal:
a neck or boot knife, , for a last resort a 410 derringer
I Know in my state when you have a ccw permit you are technically not supposed to carry at any gatherings like a parade or protest or things like that. So if you still consider johnny law to be on your side you would not general be able to conceal at organized events that could possibly turn into a riot.
I think everybody else pretty much killed the escape and evade horse. Everybody got that point already. He asked directly about weapons not techniques. I think this was a good question that didn't get a lot of direct answers.
Knowledge is your biggest advantage over an uneducated mob.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I was in the middle of the LA riots for 3 days and the things I learned were the following. Try to blend into your surroundings. If confronted by looters or a mob, make sure they see you're serious about taking them out if they approach you and they'll pick someone who doesn't believe in the 2nd amendment.
A friend of mine with a store in LA during the riots stayed to protect his store, until it was set on fire by gangsters. He knew if he stepped outside, he would have been killed, so he grabbed a TV, put a jacket & hat on to hide his face and pretended to be a looter by carrying the TV out of the store. His car was destroyed, so he walked about a mile with the TV until he was able to flag down an LAPD car.
I've been a gun dealer since the 70's, I have every assault/self protection firearm ever made and the guns that were the best bang for the buck were an AR15 CAR lightweight carbine, a Glock 22 (lots of rounds with good firepower), an M1A bush (lightweight) and a Remington 870 magnum.
In a SHTF situation, you're going to be lugging around your hardware, so you want to have something that can reach out to 200yds, be devastating with 1 shot and have mags that carry a lot of ammo. You want to keep your guns simple, don't get bogged down with all of the "combat junk" that people load their combat guns with and most of it won't be useful in a real urban combat situation.
Lots of ammo, make sure your guns are functioning well and practice till your snap shooting becomes 2nd nature.
OMG....Hornet Spray, 20oz bottles of soda, pepper spray, martial arts, a car antenna or any other like weapon is worthless when confronted by a mob or even a few motivated individuals who are looking to do damage to you.
ReplyDeleteThe people who we will have a confrontation with are animals & thugs who's only motivation is to do harm to those not in their group. If you don't have the ability to bring a higher level of violence to fight off these animals, then you're going to die. Bug spray might work on some punk kid who's looking for a fast score, but any serious group of gangsters, lowlifes and thugs will laugh at you for using anything less than deadly force.
From the posts here, you people have never been in a real life or death situation by todays animals. There is no mercy shown by these psychopatic beasts walking our strets today and if you're not prepared to kill them, you'll end up another poor victim. Killing is not pleasant or enjoyable, but in todays world, you'd better steel your mind that it is a kill or be killed mentality out there and these kids out there don't care who they murder. Your life is no more important to these scumbags, than a house fly;s life is to us.
You people better pull your heads out of the sand and be prepared to do respond to these animals with great violence, because it's the only way to protect your family and yourself. These criminals don't give a crap if you or your family die and they don't give 2nd chances, so be prepared to defend yourselves with real weapons and leave the bug spray to the bugs.
There Are two Items I feel would most likely work the best. The first being a short and light sword since it is both highly lethal, easy to lift and use, and very quiet compared to other weapons.
ReplyDeleteThe other is a cattle prod to quickly knock down opponents .
A few other suggestions that would be harder to get are smoke, flashbang or cs cannisters. Also a riot shield (however, very bulky, large and noticable)
My best weapon for a surviving a riot? A small plastic bottle of dilute hydrogen peroxide. When dilute like you see on the grocery store shelf, ingesting just a teaspoon induces almost immediate projectile vomiting. To put it mildly, people will not want to be around you.
ReplyDeleteThe deal is to get out of the area. If there are police lines you have to get through them without injury. The police could take out thier frustrations on you, why not eh? I've been there before. I'd advise carrying a real looking toy badge in a cheap wallet. As you are heading (running most likely) for the police lines, hold your badge up high and shout, "Federal Agent" you should be able to pass the police lines. Once you are on the other side you could tell them that you were just kidding and wanted out of the area before you got hurt. Who knows, it's worth a try.
ReplyDeleteYour best weapon is your already prepared and alert body. Your skills and your mental and physcial strength are your best weapons. Because you can call on them anytime you want. It's good to have a knife or a gun but you won't be able to fire that gun or swing that knife with out some mental strength and capacity. We are capable of extreme things and you cannot estimate your own self.
ReplyDeleteI meant to say you cannot UNDERestimate your self.
ReplyDeleteShawn, the "best weapon is your brain" & I agree w/ Mark re TFT, but what you may not have been told is HOW to use your brain. Grab a seat, I'll expand on "use your brain". People who have had to fight in an elevator, car, shower, water or 'odd' places know the brain is #1. Riots are no different. Fact- we operate off emotion, not intellect. The brain processes 20,000 bits of information per second, using senses & four brains; the heart, stomach, spine and cranial brain. Environmental signals/cues sent to the cranial brain get sorted out faster than the speed of light. So first and foremost, listen to and follow instinctual cues coming in; pay attention to and heed their warnings. Here is the important part; since the right hemisphere is usually dominate, the left hemisphere looks for incoming cues to take control and over ride the right, logical control. Problem is, extreme emotions are a left hemisphere dominance. Especially fear(and anger). Say you suddenly find yourself in a civil uprising (riot), the abnormal cues of this event coming in, confusion, surprise, disbelief etc. stall our logic, and this gives the left hemisphere an opportunity to "take over" and dominate with extreme emotions like fear/panic, and create confusion. At this point you lose your ability to 'think clearly'. I know you can probably recall a time this happened to you, happens to everyone. Get angry, or afraid, and you can't think or function straight. Recognizing your fear is easy. Letting it control you is where most people lose out. Now to tell you how to fix it. The answer will surprise you. Regardless of how often the left hemisphere tries to dominates, you will immediately recognize your emotional state but the right hemisphere has the power to quell it istantly-with a simple thought. All you have to do is send a thought from the right side to the left side, and fear or anger is istantly quelled. The left hemisphere has no choice but to take back seat & the right instantly retains the dominance again, allowing you to apply logical thought so you can function at your best interest. What thought do you send? A simple right to left hemisphere message & you can choose whatever thought/sentence/cue you use. Truth of the matter is, ANY effort to subdue it will work if it is in a MATTER OF FACT form. And the second you pass this 'back down' from right to left (many imagine seeing it pass from one side to the other) you continue with environmental awareness decisions. Hence-"jumping into your fear(s)". Here is another neat aspect; the second you send this back-down signal, the eyes actually look for logical answers in the environment as a continuation of the right hemisphere function. And you can see things much clearer, make snap decisions using the correct sensory, brain(s) input and take appropriate actions. And I'd like to point this out, a riot is a bunch of people operating off left hemisphere extreme emotions. Why join them, or panic to avoid them, with extreme emotion? You don't have to. Hence- blend in, get distanced, move smoothly until you can get out. Violent attacks/actions based on extreme emotions last mere seconds. Mere seconds are what World Records are made of, and mere fractions of a second are what you use to get your thoughts/motions back on track. Mere seconds are also all the time you have to implement a weapon, better it be your body-lethal techniques. I don't speak from book sense, I speak from experience, and I've got lots of it. And each time, fear tried to take control, but I listened to my brainS, used my right hemisphere to quell the hair standing up on my arms and gained logical, applicable solutions. You can't face it unless you see it. Fear causes failure. Think about it. Well, I just realized my two cents worth has run out. Time's up for me. Thank you Jeff&gang, for letting me share. Hopefully, you have a more polished arsenal in your weapons station now. Kind regards/take up guards, Caroline.
ReplyDeleteBest weapon? KelTec PLR 16. It is an ar15 pistol. In NC I can legally conceal it with my c&c license. It is extremely accurate, accepts all standard m4 magazines, and is cheap. This pistol also is powerful enough to be have multi uses, such as light or heavy game hunting as providing an advantage on self defense.
ReplyDeleteWhen the SHTF you might be at work, you might be shopping, you might be safely at home. The keltec plr 16 is something you can easily have on you at all times. It's simply an ar15 with out the butt stock.
-Crutch-
btw, I see a lot of "your brain" comments. This is the safe answer, but it's Cliche'. Your brain wont stop an incoming bullet, and if it does your dead. In a SHTF scenario instincts and weapons are what get you to your BOL not abstract thought.
ReplyDeleteYes you need to "have a brain", but the crack head with a mac10 also has one. He also has desperation, experience in doing what it takes to survive, and knowledge of the very streets you may find yourself on when the SHTF. Do you think the raiders will care that you are smart? Do you think you are so smart you can preplan a way to never be in harms way?
Lets be adult here. I have a home stead that is my BOL, but I have to get to it. I have to be able to defend it, be it by offense or defense.
If you don't have the bigger stick, you might be the smartest victim to not make it.
This is about weapons guys, unless your "brain" can shoot mind bullets, then you're missing the point.
Weapons are an inanimate tool, only as proficent as the brain that operates them. If you have had to make a consicous decision to draw a CC, shoot a person and kill them; or did not have time to draw a weapon, then you know cliche.
ReplyDeleteCrutch- I like KelTec16; and live in NC; but at 5'3"/106lbs a 26 inch, 3 pound gun isn't going grocery shopping with me. You must be a tall man. I CC a sub .40 (which actually saved me from being kidnapped in a grocery store parking lot once.) And I have a 9mm, and .45 I CC. All depends on where I am going and what my 'brain' tells me I may want to tote.
Good advice All! Been in that situation with unfriendlies, Any concealed weapon is good but DO NOT USE ! Could be suicidal. Work the crowd, blend in and move ASAP toward periphery. Get a back to a wall parallel to the crowd flow and escape/evade.
ReplyDeleteUSE YOUR MIND AND COMMON SINSE. Know when to keep your mouth shut.
ReplyDeleteIf a Mob is comming your way, a Full Auto 50 Cal would likely be an effective deterrent, though costly, actually, any belt fed full auto weapon would be good providing you are in a easily defensable position. if you need to escape, a few smoke grenades, Flash Bangs, and tear gas canisters can be confusing enough, just try to plan your route, and run away when everybody else does. act like you got some CS in your eyes, and GTFO.
ReplyDeleteGet out the area ASAP.
ReplyDeleteMany comments are well thought out, some will work for some some will just not work for anyone. No matter what situation you try to conjure up, when it happens, it will probably be different. I practice different defense situations all the time, but I do practice and practice some more. I carry a G19 w.extra mag. I carry a SW 422 w.4 extra mags every day along with a folder and a straight edge. Even though I have these every day, I have to use common sense in every situation. there are no proven methods that will work for everyone, every time. Just stay alert annd stay safe.
ReplyDeleteWOW...i read these and I see "12ga shotgun,sawed off shotgun, .45 Glock, (i like the one about the tank and aerial support though)...These weapons would more likely be signing your own death warrant. You will get one or two (or even 10)..but there are 1000's of people...Pepper spray in a fog form, dispersed out over the crowd so that you can create a diversion and GET THE HELL OUT. Common sense, your brain and a lot of the things that were discussed in the Live Broadcast would be your best. If I go to an area where I can conceal it (big game etc..), I carry $1.49 Stink Bomb capsules,bought at BUDK.com..I tried one..if someone can stay around with THAT smell permeating through the air....their brain is already probably rotted. Just drop it..someone ELSE steps on it...VOILA!..instant diversion to get out of situation.
ReplyDeleteI have a number of thoughts on this. The first thing to keep in mind is the first rule of self defense - get away from the dangerous situation! That should be your objective in this situation. If a riot does happen to break out, just get away. There won't be an angry mob chasing you, unless it so happens that you're the politician, business leader, etc. that the people are angry at. Also, a riot will typically have some kind of focal point, such as the building that that individual work or lives (just look at occupy wall street - the protesters are outside of the wall street building protesting, not somewhere unrelated). That, or once the riot breaks out, people will all be running about doing their own thing, be it fighting the police, looting, etc. In any case, the people aren't after you and if you high tail it out of there, you're likely to be. Another thing to keep in mind is that riots doing just break out in the blink of an eye - people won't just go from standing around peacefully to setting car on fire and attacking each other with broken bottles. You can generally see this kind of thing coming. If you see a large crowd of people exhibiting social unrest and a riot is not something you want be involved with, get out of there asap! Now to answer the question at hand more directly, the best weapons you could have ready to go are not things you can carry on you most places. I agree with the people who said a shotgun - that would be the absolute best weapon to have. But you can't take that in to work with you unless you're in law enforcement or the military. I would suggest some kind of mace or pepper spray - preferably with a wider distribution. This might sound like an ineffective weapon but bare in mind that people rioting most likely will not be after you individually. If you spray the after person it will give you the few second that they are crying their eyes out to keep running and get away. They're not likely to come after you unless you are the person of interest. Besides there is so much going on during a riot that they aren't going to have the time to try to figure out what happened to you and go after you. Its a free for all survival situation and they're going to have to keep moving to avoid falling victim to another rioter (or arrested, for that matter). Another suggestion I would give is some type of collapsible baton would be a good choice. You can very easily knock someone you or break vulnerable bones (the collar bone, for example, is an excellent target). Again, the key is hit and run and get away as fast as you can. The other advantage of a baton is that it gives you greater reach so if you running along and you're experienced at using it, you can knock people down before they have the chance to stand in your way and assault you. Aside from those, any weapon that won't slow you down, can easily injure attackers in a way that will buy you time, and is legal to carry most places will be an asset in that situation. Just remember to avoid situations where riots are prone to break out and if one does, get out of there as fast as possible!
ReplyDelete